You likely haven’t heard much discussion about it because of the circle you are in and the fact that nothing was really concluded about it, and most people don’t care. Those that do, will fight tooth and nail in their comfortzone to avoid it alltogether at the risk of actually having to learn something of depth about their faith.

If Zeus is considered a supreme being, and you deny his existence, that’s exactly what an atheist does. If Allah is considered a supreme being, denying his existence is what an atheist does. You don’t find enough good reasons to think these gods exist. Like I say, I just believe in one less god than you do, likely for the same reasons.

It seems to me, that from how you branch off in your replies, that your particular motivation for being a Christian is the lifestyle it encourages (or seems to.. that’s another discussion). It seems to me that your lifestyle would be more or less ‘out of control’ so to speak if you were to say deny your faith. Maybe it’s kind of like a self help program for you, and your penatence to it is because of the system and how it works for you. I don’t doubt that you truly do love it.

It also seems that there is a contrast you draw in the value of life to how you percieve what a “pure life” would be. It’s as if you find life less valuable if it involves sex or alcohol and such “hedonist” pursuits. I strongly suspect that your self control was simply so weak, that you need a system. This same system compounds the guilt associated with your OVERindulgence with whatever activities. Sex isn’t tainted, the way you experienced it may have been. Alcohol isn’t tainted, your expressed obsession with it may have been etc..

Biblical principles seem to have been a revelation to you of a life that can offer an alternative way to approach life’s options. A system that is timeless. A system that compiles the best of life’s “here’s how to avoid learning the hard way” lessons and “even if you do, you can start over” ideas.

You see, in this way, I think the Bible is good and in this way almost exclusively (from a emotional/spiritual point of view) it is usefull. What it suggests about the spiritual realm and heavens and evils and gods just gives the story completion and motivation to be reminded to do the good things.

I’ve also seen prayer work. I’ve also seen wishful thinking work as well. Just as much as I’ve seen both of them fail, if not more.

I think of the seasons finale of Corner Gas, it looked like Lacy was leaving, Brent was selling Corner Gas, was this the end? Why on earth would they consider doing any of those? It was brilliant marketing, I had to watch it (although I am an avid Corner Gas fan!).

I have a feeling that this documentary was nothing more then some sort of publicity stunt. I think you were right, “no thought or investigation involved”, the background stories that I read concerning this tomb is that BBC already tried the same thing, and was completely debunked.

As for another comment in regards to “we are both atheists” I would have to strongly disagree. Like any other student, I promptly looked up the definition to atheist which is “a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.” (atheist. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved March 18, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist).

I do neither. I do believe in the existence of a “supreme being”. I choose to believe that this “supreme being” is the God of the bible. You do however bring up an interesting point. I have been thinking and contemplating what sort of thoughts or ideas could possibly seperate us, and whether or not these discussions are pointless and will merely go in circles.

You point that my entire belief system being based on the bible is pointless and born out of ignorance. I would very nearly make the same argument. I think then we enter into circular arguments, and I have a feeling that it is pointless. By all natural accounts you philosophy claims, and line of logic do make more sense then me placing my trust in a religion that is difficult to understand, difficult to defend and at times problematic. The more I have been digging into theological matters, tenants of the faith, orthodox beliefs, the more I feel I understand less.

I do find myself coming to the question of why? Would it not be easier to stop denying my natural flesh cravings and stop trying hard to live a “pure life”? To live as Great Big Sea aptly puts it “Consequence Free”, I relate to that song more then I would like to admit?

Then I am gently reminded of when I did live that lifestyle, (I would encourage you to read “The Prodigal Son Is Me”), it had consequences and exacted a price that I was unable to pay. Living “consequence free” is an impossible myth, you still have to take measures to keep yourself safe, (not really anything true about “safe sex”), one cannot simply become a hedonist without being willing to take risks.

I am also reminded of the power of prayer. Prayers privately prayed, without telling anyone, specific requests made and those specific prayers getting answered. Peace that overcomes and penetrates to the deepest of my being that I never found in all the sex, all the drinking, and other hedonist pursuits that I indulged myself in.

Where does this all place me now? This reminds me of my pursuit for learning theology to try and grasp some sort of a human understanding of who and what God is. Why do I reject all other religious systems, philosophies, and other theories around me? I have seen the power and answer of prayer, and have experienced a peace, not a peace that comes from non-existence, but a peace that there is a God who cared, cared enough to send His Son to die for me, and give me a way to enter into a relationship in a way that nothing can pull me out of.

Again I maintain that it is not through blind ignorance, it is not through anything else but the power and the reality of a live, caring, compassionate God, who has made His presence known to me in a very real and tangible way.

I geuss my comment turned nearly into a blog itself!

Blessings,
David

I kinda hope they end up figuring out that Jesus tomb or anthing can never be found just so the people can discover the truth based on what we’re given already. Seems like kind of an empty victory actually finding the body of Christ. There is no thought or investigation involved. At least not having physical evidence challenges people to look into things.

Actually in this case, it would probalby be the other way around. Once there was something they COULDN’T deny, people would actually be forced to really evaluate what they believe. Most people just walk by faith and that’s just a car bomb waiting to happen.

I would not want to discount that you find great value or even that there is not great value to be found in many principles presented in the Bible. I too have lived and continue to live my life by most of them. I think it’s the foundation for which people rally to presume that they can know anything about a spiritual realm based on it’s contents that I would have a bigger problem with. It’s a very human book, if it is wrong about things we can test. If it’s wrong about such things, then it’s quite likely that what it claims about spiritual things is equally as flawed and/or contrived.

For our discusions, I’ll do my best to stick to the realm of your strengths, Sola Scriptura.

Here is a response that I gave someone that emailed me some questions. I address the ascension a little later, I just think that it may be good to clarify about the resurrection, because I believe that if Jesus physically resurrected, it seems to follow to me, that the next act that Jesus did, (after making His appearances), the ascension, would be a physical ascension.

This is something I am just beginning to think through, I think probably what would be best is for me to consult what some theologians have thought about this, but until that time, I will try to answer the best of my ability. I firmly believe the context of the 1 Corinthians does talk about the physical resurrection. Look at verses 3-11, specifically verse 4, “and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” I think also the Luke passage is pretty clear, if His resurrection had simply been spiritual, then His body would have remained in the tomb. Why would the stone be rolled away? Why would His linen been folded and laying there? I think the most blatant verse that talks to a physical resurrection, and a “joining” of sorts, is His appearance to the disciples, notice verse 39, “See My hands, and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” What is Jesus asserting here? I believe that He is saying, “I cannot be merely a spirit as you think I am, I am also physical. I am the very same Jesus that died, and as I said I would I am alive again.” Jesus’ own predictions, Matthew 16:21; Mark 9:31; 10:34, now my question is, if Jesus claimed this and His resurrection was only spiritual, wherein lies the power over death?

What was the power of the cross, was it that He simply bore the sins of the world, and died? Essentially, we look to the Old Testament for our answers, look at the sacrificial system that God put in place, how were our sins atoned for? God instituted sacrifices for nearly every area and aspect of life, for congregational sins, for sins we committed intentionally, purity sacrifices, and also for those sins that we had no idea that we committed.

As for physical ascension, which Amy astutely pointed I did not really address, I know that it has to be a physical ascension, and it is something that I am going to have to really think through. I know that Christian orthodoxy (basic tenants of faith that transcends denominational lines and are universal to Christian faith), believes that it has to be a spiritual ascension. For me it would follow that having physically resurrected, having now existing within a fully physical and spiritual body, (the idea which I have no idea how it works), that when Christ ascended, He ascended physically. I think it also has to do with passages relating to Revelation that talks about Christ establishing His kingdom.

I think the idea that Jesus existing now in both a spiritual and physical form, (how that form exists, I have no idea), gives us a couple of different pictures. I think through Jesus, we can understand the humanity of God. But like many other things, the fear of God, jealousy of God, anger of God, wrath of God, understanding those types of traits through sinful, imperfect eyes, it is hard for us to understand. I believe that through the humanity of Jesus, we can have a better understanding of Genesis 1:26-27, where it talks about God creating man in His own image. How can man be created in an image of spirit?

I hope that helps a little bit. These are really good questions that I think we should wrestle with. I really want to stress, that I really feel as though I am still only beginning my journey and only now seeing the value of wrestling through theology. Lets keep engaging each other!

Blessings,
David

I enjoy your challenges. I imagine engaging in Christians in what you presume to be “ignorance” can be rather frustrating. I would never presume to say that any other person of another religion is following it out of ignorance. I honestly would talk about it in faith.

“Faith” is definied as;
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one’s promise, oath, allegiance, etc.:

Based upon this definition, I would imagine that it would be logical to assume that even a person without any belief in any particular religion or religious systems would also need a measure of faith to believe that there is no particular deity in existence. That is to say, I would argue and believe that it takes as much faith to believe in atheism as it does to believe in the existence of God. I could follow an argument that the subject matter of faith can be “blind faith”, I however would never say that decisions for beliefs in a system, even atheism, is never borne out of ignorance.

I find it interesting that you are so assured that because there are apparent inaccuracies contained within the bible, (on these matters I have zero expertise, and very little training, although I have sources that I can tap into), the Bible carries very compelling and excellent princepals to live by. These princepals have proved to be true over and over in my life.

The existence of God and the power of transformation in the belief in Christ is firmly planted within my life. The grounds for which I hold the Bible to be true is because the promises contained within Scritures have been proven again and again within my life.

Why have I decided to place my faith within the Christian God and hold to biblical truths? For the simple fact that God called me unto Himself. He called me to Him in a real tangible way. Not only that, couple it with the amount of people who were praying for me, there is no accounting for the power of prayer.

Blessings Mr.Malone, I hope we can continue, and I do not mind engaging in further blogs on here. I appreciate having to think through what I believe. Perhaps could we wait till I post the next blog?